"Gods, I wish I could walk away for the SOMERblink player-initiated controversy, but I can't." says Mabrick. And here am I likewise reluctantly plunging into this rabbithole.
Look, let me get one thing clear - I don't gamble, I've never "blinked" and I don't have any personal financial interest here. No one pays me isk to write, not even TMC or EN24 both of whom will take anyone with a keyboard and an Eve account.
I do however like Eve. A lot.
And it's because I like Eve that I don't wish to see the Eve dominated by this petulant "oh he got something I didn't" whining that the community is so addicted to.
It's destructive.
Whining about the monocle led to a crisis at CCP that saw 200 people laid off. Many companies fail to survive such turmoil, we're lucky we still have Eve after that. And why? Because "he gets to wear a monocle and I don't get one waa waa waa."
If you jumped on that bandwagon shame on you, you idiots almost killed CCP.
Fast forward to Scorpiongate. Some PR dude at CCP gave out some freebies. "Oh waa waa waa, I didn't get one, shoot the monument."
Sheeez. Big babies.
Now on to the latest controversy. Turns out that through a convoluted chain of kickbacks people who route trafffic to GTC sellers as affiliates can leverage Eve assets into real money. "Oh waa waa waa, I'm not getting any."
How about you get off your butt and inject some value into the sandbox?
Look I don't gamble and I think gambling is generally a way to part fools from their money (or isk as the case may be). But clearly there's a significant section of the community that loves it, which is why SOMER has so much isk to burn.
Let's go over that again - some people (probably not you) LOVE IT. The rest of us play elsewhere in the sandbox and aren't affected except being occasional beneficiaries of SOMER philanthropy. I doubt many people wish they'd never given Kil2 ships to fly around and solo with.
So either you are someone who likes gambling with Somerblink in which case you should consider the billions you spend to be money invested in entertaining yourself (and I think most of them do). Spending isk on a blink is not a level-headed investment in 1/20th of a Golem, it's money spent on fun. So those guys aren't losers, they spend isk and receive fun.
Or you are someone who doesn't play in which case the parting of the isk from SOMER's customers serves to make us richer - SOMER buys ships from us, sponsors events and helps keep the sandbox full of paying customers by entertaining people in a distinctive way, people who might otherwise get bored and quit.
No one was harmed in the making of this situation.
Until it became a drama.
Now we've had DNSBlack make a point of RMTing to show CCP they're in the wrong. There's a fair chance he'll get banned. So we have an incredibly invested player who's put a lot into the community at risk of never playing Eve again because of ? what? principle?
OK, let me tell you about principles. Here's one: THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
If you were raised in a Christian country as I imagine a lot of readers were you were raised with that principle. In fact as it's Old Testament it also pertains to Jews and Muslims.
Feel proud that your country stood up to Hitler? Feel sympathetic towards your country's war heroes?
Let's have another look at that principle: THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
It's pretty clear. It doesn't say don't kill but fighting Hitler's ok.
My point is principles always have to bend in the real world. No principle, and it's hard to find a principle more basic, more morally right that Thou Shalt Not Kill stands up to every situation. Of course it's alright to defend your family, your country. People who insist that it isn't don't generally survive to pass their folly down to succeeding generations (unless protected by people willing to kill). It's a mean old world and if a community of true pacifists arose some bastard would call round, kick their door in and take their lunch money.
So here we are in Eve, the community hysterical over someone getting something they didn't, people throwing themselves under trains in protest, the company having to make some kind of resolution out of this dog's breakfast of a situation.
Want to know what you should do?
Move on.
Nothing to see here.
The whole thing is stupid, and will be tragic if valuable people in the community like DNSBlack end up getting perma-banned. Which is a real possibility.
Now the people I'm really cross with are the sheep.
Look, we're all different. Some of us are narcissists, staring into the mirror, mirror, mirror am I the fairest in the land? Oh shit, someone else is fairer? And they got given an Ishukone Scorpion?? Outrage!
But that's them.
Just because those somewhat lunatic narcissists explode when another player gets given something they didn't get doesn't mean the rest of you have to follow their lead baaing. We had it with monocles, we had it with Scorpions, we are now having it with affiliate fees. Just stop mindlessly rabbling over something that doesn't affect you in the slightest because if you derail the game's development, if you bring the company down, then it will affect us.
Just move on.
SOMER is a for-profit organization both in EVE and outside. They aren't content creators like bloggers, fleet commanders or space-politicians. They make money using the dumbness of people.
ReplyDeleteShall I get 20-30B worth of rare ships because I made 500B in Jita? Shall the guy who ran away with 350B worth of TEST courier contracts get a Ishukune Scorpion for "creating content"?
SOMER didn't give anyone anything without getting something (more) back. It is fine. But it's not something that warrant official support or recognition.
Possibly not but they got official support and recognition so we have to deal with it. We can either riot and do our best to bring CCP to a crashing halt or we can simply move on with our lives.
DeleteThy got official support from CCP because they added content to the game, regardless of whether they profited from it. You might not like the way they added said massive amounts of content, but they did. Nuff said.
DeleteAs for the original point that they're a for profit company making money off of the 'dumbness of people' - the same could be said of CCP! They're a video game company. One could argue that by paying a monthly fee and essentially paying for fictional space ships you are being stupid, and they are profiting from your stupidity.
But Jay! I'm paying for entertainment you say! Well, the same can be said for Somer. It's entertainment. Stop whining about it.
Thy got official support from CCP because they added content to the game, regardless of whether they profited from it. You might not like the way they added said massive amounts of content, but they did. Nuff said.
DeleteAs for the original point that they're a for profit company making money off of the 'dumbness of people' - the same could be said of CCP! They're a video game company. One could argue that by paying a monthly fee and essentially paying for fictional space ships you are being stupid, and they are profiting from your stupidity.
But Jay! I'm paying for entertainment you say! Well, the same can be said for Somer. It's entertainment. Stop whining about it.
Holy crap, I agree with Gevlon!
ReplyDeleteBut that's not the main reason that this whole situation pisses me off. What does it for me is the selective enforcement of rules. What Somer is doing, is RMT. There's been plenty of back and forth about it, but if you look at it, its clearly isk being traded for cash.
Now if CCP want to turn around and say "Yes, trading isk for cash through a GTC affiliate is fine", then I'm happy, problem resolved.
The issue is, they aren't doing that. They are merrily going along saying "Yeah, Somer are brilliant, have never scammed and are great content providers". Ignoring the fact that they have no way of knowing if they are legit or not, they are not answering the question of legality in this matter.
CCP need to give a definite answer, and either everyone should be allowed to do this, or nobody should be. I can slap a "lottery" website in a few minutes, become an affiliate and start shelling out my isk if it's allowed, and I'm sure there's a huge portion of the community that is the same. If they decide it's not allowed, that's fine, but Somer must then be punished.
Oh and before I forget, Somer also run several accounts dedicated to running the Somer Blink. As this is a business, this makes those accounts business accounts, which is against the EULA. So there's another infringement.
So let me just clarify your positions on this. CCP should continue to selectively enforce rules on different parts of the community and we should just HTFU and continue paying them bags of cash, because we need them right?
Wrong. The reason they got in so much trouble before is because they treated the community like we should be thanking them for the service they provide. We're not being given this service, we are paying for it. We are customers. They need US to survive, not the other way around. So they need to decide whether their relationship with Somer and the content Somer provide is worth spitting in the face of the community.
they treated the community like we should be thanking them for the service they provide.
DeleteErm well yes. They don't have to provide this service. If we make their jobs hard enough (as we did when we got 200 staff laid off), they could give up this games thing and go do online auctions or some such.
Do you really really think it's worth stamping on the company to win out obscure points of principle. It's not even as if the community is unanimous. If they stamp on Somer because a bunch of customers are pissed off that pisses off a different section of customers in turn.
Why should be be thanking them? We are paying them for the service they provide, and they chose to completely ignore our concerns. If I went into a restaurant and they gave me soup with a fly in it, but refused to even listen to my complaints about the fly, you can be damn sure I'm not going to say thanks for the service.
DeleteAnd perhaps they should give up this games thing if basic customer service is something they are unwilling to provide. A large group of the community is concerned and they haven't even given a "We're currently working with our legal team for an official response", or even a "Go away peasants". They've simply ignored the concerns.
Finally, I'd agree, except this isn't an obscure point, it's plain as day RMT. I honestly don't care whether they decide it's allowed or not allowed, but there has to be a single rule for the whole community.
If they address your concerns they're ignoring my concerns. Check Nosy Gamer. He's come out against SOMER and then ran a survey. Most people don't want CCP to act on this.
DeleteAlso and this is another thing that rather annoys me. Many players getting ranty about this confuse "has decided not to take action" with "completely ignore".
DeleteCCP are not ignoring you. They're not taking the action you wish them to take. In doing so they are taking the action the majority of players wish them to take which is not to let their elbow get joggled by a ranting minority. They're actually reflecting the mood of their players (as gleaned from Nosy's survey).
To use the word "ignore" when the meaning you intend to convey is "not doing what I want" is bad English.
But they have ignored the community, How many posts have to pop up about it before they issue a statement? If they are tanking (or not taking) action, they should simply come out and say that, and settle the community.
DeleteSaying nothing is not helping anyone.
Oh and the poll on NosyGamer, the majority say it is wrong, but CCP should allow them to continue if the cease the illegal activities, which I'd agree with.
If they are going to allow them to continue, they should clarify that everyone is allowed to do the same.
I'm with you, Stabs. People are persistently dragging this manufactured drama on and on due to some screwed up belief that CCP shouldn't give free stuff out without giving it to everyone.
ReplyDeleteGevlon, what the hell does Somer being for profit or otherwise have to do with whether CCP can or can't reward them? Somer creates content by giving the stupid and/or space rich somewhere to blow their ISK. Somer also supports others creating content for eample by giving out prizes to the Ganked roams. *This encourages people to create more content*.
Lucas, you would really prefer CCP shut down EVE than ignored the useless vitriol being spewed by jealous people who didn't get their special ship? You should just stop playing now and leave the rest of us to enjoy our game.
Hi 5
DeleteAnd 5 on the side!
DeleteThis, THIS and Mutherfukkin THIS!!!! You go Stabs.
Delete@Gevlon
ReplyDelete1: SOMER is a content creator like bloggers, fleet commanders or space-politicians.
Please don't suggest otherwise. The only difference is that SOMER is run commercially for profit.
2: CCP could showcase you in the community spotlight and give you a reward for educating players.
3: Ishukone & related scandal were the fault of CCP, not of SOMER.
4: Does SOMER facilitate RMT? Yes, with the consent of CCP.
The difference with traditional RMT is that CCP still gets their share of dollars because for every 200 million isk you buy with RMT this way CCP earns 14 dollars.
@Stabs
Principles don't have to bend in the real world. Though you might have to pay for it with your life (or imprisonment or any other sanction forced upon you).
What if under player pressure CCP is now forced to amend tos/eula to disallow any isk transfer that can be related to out of game money transfers? Would that add or detract from the game we play?
I think player outrage, unsubbing and new RMT schemes will only reduce the quality of the game we all play. CCP is unable respond with an acceptable solution without extensive legal research. This will take time.
The only way not to bend on principle is to pick a very short list of principles. I can pick one principle, for instance never knowingly eat the flesh of animals, and live by that. But other principles - don't allow by apathy a government to commit unjust acts - I compromise all the time.
DeleteNo one adheres perfectly to all their principles you have to pick your battles. And of all the fights to pick this is one of the least principled having its roots in jealousy.
Want a good principle to act on? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's Ishukone ass.
Its not a 'scandal' unless someone 'feels' scandalized... What I believe Stabs is saying, and what I agree with wholeheartedly is... There is NO scandal. There's just whiney self absorbed entitled cry babies throwing a tantrum over something someone else did WITH CCP's full support.
DeleteCCP OWNs EVE. Period, end of discussion. They can do AS THEY PLEASE with their product... if you don't like it, unsub and go play WoW.
@Orea
ReplyDelete"you would really prefer CCP shut down EVE than ignored the useless vitriol being spewed by jealous people who didn't get their special ship"
No, but I'd rather CCP shut down EVE than think they can selectively impose the EULA rules on different members of the community and ignore all complaints against it.
And it's no your game. We are all customers. You are, I am, Somer is too. I have no issues as long gs we are treated fairly. I don't even care that Somer get's given ships to hand out. But I do care when a group is not subject to the same rules as everyone else. That's discrimination.
@Raziel
"What if under player pressure CCP is now forced to amend tos/eula to disallow any isk transfer that can be related to out of game money transfers? Would that add or detract from the game we play?"
This would clarify the issue and balance the problem. Somer would have to cease the RMT portion of their business and we're all good.
"I think player outrage, unsubbing and new RMT schemes will only reduce the quality of the game we all play. CCP is unable respond with an acceptable solution without extensive legal research. This will take time."
It would take them no time at all to stop what Somer is doing. It's already against at least 2 parts of the EULA. They are choosing to not enforce the rules.
"No, but I'd rather CCP shut down EVE than think they can selectively impose the EULA rules on different members of the community and ignore all complaints against it."
DeleteHave you read the EULA? Here's the gist: everything is potentially bannable. They then selectively enforce it.
This is how one-sided contracts work - you claim the sun moon and the stars as your starting point because you know that if a point is contested you'll have to meet in the middle. So you prepare your ground by being as far from the middle as possible.
Players constantly break the EULA. Smack talk is against the EULA, account sharing is against the EULA. All copying is against the EULA so if I use the term "Caldari Navy Raven" I am - technically breaking the EULA.
They don't ban players for such activities because they use compromise and common sense over absurd black and white legalism.
I'd rather CCP shut down EVE than think they can selectively impose the EULA rules on different members of the community
DeleteThey can and do. And this is not a problem. Because (a) it is their game, not the "community's". And (b) the EULA is not an agreement that binds CCP. The entire point of it is to bind the customer. Not only does it say "may" in all situations where it describes CCP's actions. But they can also change it unilaterally. And indeed, it already includes language saying they can throw you out for no reason at all.
Just because you have some relationship to a thing does not mean you own it.
"Some PR dude at CCP gave out some freebies. "Oh waa waa waa, I didn't get one, shoot the monument."
ReplyDeleteBest description ever for ScorptionGate.
While I don't like RMT, I can live with RMT when CCP has his share of proft ;-) Like when Somer solds an GTC and gives you some SomerCredits.
Of course , it would be even better when CCP would tell Somer to stopp giving Credits when buying GTC's from them ;-)
If you think the Incarna protests were about somebody not getting a free monocle, then you were seriously not paying attention. The monocle is, after all, still in the store and nobody cares. That alone pretty much proves it was not the issue.
ReplyDeleteThe issue was the direction the game was going and where development would be focusing their efforts. The result was CCP returning to focus on the core of their game, the whole internet spaceships part that I imagine is the part you love.
I don't give two shits about SOMER, but the Incarna protests were about the heart and soul of the game and comparing the two shows a disturbing lack of insight into a game you claim to love.
It was both. Sure, for people who like spaceships Incarna was a wash, bringing in content that offered nothing to us and indicating a Walking in Stations path that would dominate several forthcoming expansions and take years to get to the stage where I could buy you a beer in some spacepub then slip you a mickey, forge your pilot's licence and steal your megathron.
DeleteBut a solid chunk of the protest was about monocles. It was even called Monoclegate. And I see the fact that monocles are still in the shop and no one cares as rather undermining my point that this is whipped up hysteria over utterly trivial envy issues.
Well still, no it wasn't about monocles. It was about microtransactions. Too many MMOs slap microtransactions in to boost their income and utterly destroy the underlying foundation, and it was the introduction of microtransactions that caused that uproar. I would still be much happier should the NeX Store be closed. It's always there as a constant reminder of where EVE may one day go.
DeleteSee now you're getting hysterical over trivia.
DeleteIf Eve is "utterly destroyed" don't play it.
Alternatively you could do what 99% of us do and play Eve without ever looking at or shopping in that store.
Frankly if some players want to throw bucks at CCP for cosmetics then great. I like CCP having money and I don't even notice the cosmetic stuff any more.
But it wasn't utterly destroyed... Because the community stood up for what we wanted. If CCP had put in microtransactions at the level that MMOs do these days, trust me, I'd be well and truly gone.
DeleteI really don't understand what it is you want. Do you want us to not be passionate about the game we play and to just let it go in whatever direction, quitting when they change something we don't like, rather than simply stating we don't like it?
And seriously, if you think that response is "hysterical", it's no surprise that you overreact to the communities response to Somers RMTing.
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ReplyDeleteWho gives a F@ck. Is what I say, and if you do then I want your problems. So your upset that a company maybe RMT.
ReplyDeleteLets look at it.
Player buys a GTC Legal transaction.
In turn company for purchasing thru them rewards the player. Legal Transaction.
With said reward player wins/aquires game item. OMG RMT uh? how so my money bought me game time. I was rewarded blink credits. which in turn I used on the site to try win/ buy a item. I guess I have a helmit on because I totally miss what to be pissed about.
I think the RMT part is Somer get a cash kickback from the referral code. By enticing people to use their referral by giving blink credit it's supposed to be RMT. The whole issue people have with this stinks of jealousy that they didn't think of it first.
DeleteOh it probably is RMT by most definitions. Anyone who makes any form of real income, including blogs with ads, is parlaying their Eve experience into real money.
DeleteThe trick is not to get hung up on some conceived notion of a blanket rule (ie RMT is bannable) and look at the case. Is Eve better if this product-within-a-sandbox is banned? Is it a good thing that Eve PR people are now scared to give out freebies?
No and no.
It's not that they *make money, it's *how they make that money. Trading ISK for real money.
DeleteAll the rationalization in the world doesn't change the fact that ISK is being exchanged for real money. Somer gives ISK to the customer, the customer gives markee money and markee gives somer some of that money to Somer.
Exchanging in game currency for real money is precisely the type of RMT game companies (supposedly including CCP) want to stamp out.
Yeah at this stage they probably need to outlaw the practice without banning players.
DeleteThey have to change it because of all the "Buy my timecode and receive free isk" protest posts that players are putting up to force their hand.
A minor change that affects most of us not at all and which as kept the Community team focused on this for weeks and will inhibit them from interacting with the community in future.
Not exactly a win for the average Eve player.