Wednesday, 30 April 2014

A win for the blogosphere!

"Absurd," they claimed. "Irresponsible," they called us. "Mass ignorance and hysteria," they said.

The strong concern expressed here and on many other blogs seems to have got through to CCP and CCP Greyscale said today

"First, we're hoping to broadly maintain the current balance of manufacturing between hisec, lowsec, nullsec and w-space with these changes, purely because it reduces the risk of the changes as a whole. We're hopeful that the summer release will make manufacturing in nullsec more viable, but we're not attempting to comprehensively address nullsec industry in this expansion as it needs to be done as part of a wider consideration of the nullsec ecosystem."

That really wasn't the case before for all CCP want to imply "nerf highsec, no no we never wanted that, apologies for the miscommunication." The original dev blog clearly stated otherwise:

"Expect costs ranging from 0% to 14% of the base item being produced for the most extreme case."

Reading that with the knowledge that currently almost all non-cap manufacturing occurs within 2 jumps of Jita it's clear who that was going to hurt.

There's still a very strong move towards nullsec via the refining changes but at least high sec industry won't be hit by a double whammy of 14% manufacturing costs on top of significantly worse refining.

Great job to everyone who blogged robustly about this. We won!

Sadly in some cases I think we have lost good people we won't get back but at least Mord Fiddle, probably the finest writer blogging in Eve this year won't be completely out of our reach.


  1. 'The original dev blog clearly stated otherwise:

    "Expect costs ranging from 0% to 14% of the base item being produced for the most extreme case."'

    Nowhere does it say there that nullsec will be 0%, and highsec will be 14%. If you want to criticize CCP on these changes, there's plenty to focus on that doesn't make you sound like Dinsdale. But this isn't it. This is nonsense.

    1. High sec manufacturing is densely clustered around Jita. The current set up would have been penalised.

    2. The current setup is still going to be hit by the changes, and production will spread out more. That's besides the point. People were worried about CCP trying to destroy hisec manufacturing, and that clearly wasn't their goal in the first place.

      My take on the changes is that a few of the dedicated industrialists have been pointing out massive bugs/oversights in the changes, which they spotted in apparently a matter of minutes and which makes the CCP devs look like complete novices. Given this embarrassing situation, the fact that the changes are as good and balanced as they are seems nothing short of a miracle.

    3. Seconded.

      It amazes me that people read "0% to 14%" and see 14%. And "clearly"? Not, not clear at all. Yes, right now manufacturors use slots in the Forge and near Jita. It does not have to be that way. There are unused slots all over the place. You will just have to go further from Jita than two jumps. Yes, that is "penalizing" the current setup, but come on.

      I noticed Greyscale's comment too. However I did not take it as backtracking but as trying to clarify what the goal of the revision is: to level the playing field, so that people can reasonably manufacture in null.

  2. You keep forgetting the various comments by the dev's stating there were more bonuses being handed to null sec that have not been implemented yet, and the idiot dev's have been begging the players to give them ideas, any ideas, on what to do with POS's.

    It is abundantly clear that the CSM gave them no feedback about what to do with high sec POS's. And the reason is clear. The null sec cartels, outside of their CSAA's, consider POS mfg / research an afterthought, and when they handed this industrial blueprint to the dev's, it clearly held no detail about POS's, other than to screw high sec.

    High sec and low sec (same bonuses/ penalties as high sec, really?) have not won anything. Wait until all the unknowns are filled in after the dev's beg the cartel architects for instruction. And wait until the T2 invention changes hit in the fall.

    Bottom line, CCP has completely missed the boat with this release. Forget about the fact that it was architected by the null sec cartel economic warfare guys. What an industrial guy wants is a few things:

    1. Low risk.
    2. Cost certainty (part of #1).
    3. Minimizing his non-paying time.

    Well, high sec indy guys are now faced with huge new risks, whether it is transporting goods and blueprints, or the well-documented issues with POS's and BPO's.

    As for cost certainty, when your slot costs are all over the map based on other peoples' activities, that is the opposite of certainty.

    And as for non-productive time, having to migrate constantly to move blueprints, or products 20 jumps is hugely time-consuming. And let's not not even begin to how many people will pack it in the 2nd or 3rd time they have to pull up stakes because the low cost high sec mfg system they found is suddenly not so low cost due to other players' activity.

    I really really hope that tons of people unsub. CCP has demonstrated time after time that is the only way they listen. That being said, the calculus indicates they might lose at most 1% of the player base over this disaster, which is not enough to slow them down.

    1. I do think that player dissatisfaction has at least entered CCP's radar which is a win of sorts. CCP Greyscale's phrasing clearly shows he's aware people aren't happy.

      I think what we really need is a nullsec shakeup. The notion of a blue doughnut filled with botters and no-life multiboxers is appalling to people outside null who have to compete. If we see a shake up with poses being killed and stations getting conquered I think high sec people will be more inclined to forgive null a numeric advantage that only applies in optimal conditions.

    2. @ Stabs: When was the last time a Goon station was taken down?

      Who has the capability to even take them down? PL? Nope, they have their own rental empire and various ISK printing presses to protect by avoiding war. N3? They are still cleaning up and consolidating, and are months behind PL and CFC in establishing their own printing presses. Russians are toast, again, for now.

      This will be a summer of great quiet, as the cartels establish the production lines, tweak station upgrades, and generally enhance their RMT streams.

      The only way major warfare breaks out is if one of the sides, likely the goon group, grow so bored that they need to fight someone to keep the line members engaged.

    3. Probably Q-C in Tribute by Black Legion at the start of the Fountain War.

      My theory is that the Goons may get so bored they break up the CFC. I think the collapse of Gents may have been partly due to the difficulty of finding people to fight.

  3. Did you notice the 50% increase in jump fuel cost? This will seriously affect shipping in low/null

    The 0-14% tax is a *system* wide effect. This is... peculiar. If a station is red hot, and a nearby POS is barely busy, the POS manufacturing "tax" will be the same as the station. This could lead to all sorts of wonky effects, and even some new types of scam/extortion (I call this one! )

  4. Ha ha that's a hilariously inventive new way of griefing!

    Added you to my blogroll :)

  5. I'm almost over the fence on things at this point but your posts do make me laugh!

  6. "Reading that with the knowledge that currently almost all non-cap manufacturing occurs within 2 jumps of Jita it's clear who that was going to hurt."

    Could you further elaborate on that statement with the following production 2013 chart in mind:

    Thats from CCP ... do you think all this dots are capital producers? I don't know all the systems by heart but I don't think that even the half of the med to big size circles are "within 2 jumps of jita".

    Current "production line mechanics" simply prevent such a dense production area as your wait-time goes up as closer you get to jita.

    1. Good catch.

      I was simply wrong about 2 jumps. It's more like 8 jumps. CCP Soniclover mentioned Itamo and Muvolailen as major industry centres recently which backs up the chart you linked.

      Sorry, I was not more diligent in my research for this post.