In response to a comment of Spinks' I've decided to push for a change in the way Eve players use the word jew.
Responses were negative, even outraged, with some extremely hate-filled.
The thread is now nuked after it got extremely nasty. Still I received several supportive posts and 40 Likes amidst all the rage it provoked.
I hope we as a community can clear our act up. It's only a matter of time before someone reports an Eve Youtube as a racially aggravated public order offence and the police get involved.
Well, the responses to that thread reminded me why I'm so happy I don't play Eve any more.
ReplyDeleteOn the bright side, your well-reasoned post got more than half as many "likes" as the person who replied "OP is a massive ****** jew. Go die in a magic circle of fire. Ingame."
Yes I like the way he added ingame. Just in case anyone might have thought he wasn't a nice person out of game.
ReplyDeleteIs there no forum moderation at all? Or in-game moderation? I'm kind of shocked that such bigoted remarks seem commonplace on the official forums and in the game.
ReplyDeleteYes there is. One of the Goons just got banned for the N-word.
DeleteDo you think it's actually possible to have a sandbox PvP game that isn't rife with sexism/ racism/ harassment etc.? Theoretically it should be, because there are plenty of players who like no holds barred PvP who aren't like that, but I suppose the griefers will always move in.
ReplyDeleteIn sport, which is just as macho and competitive, they try hard to combat it. In football, while it's a long way from clean, it's miles better than the 80s when black players were booed and had objects thrown at them.
DeleteWhy would you moderate a game in which you are role playing?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't characters in the eve universe us this word?
Perhaps if people assumed role playing, or everyone was required to put role playing tags around their text, or use their real name when not role playing this wouldn't be an issue.
EVE role players don't need to clean up their act; just any EVE players who are the same in real life.
Because roleplaying doesn't excuse everything.
DeleteIf someone RPed a child rapist and went into graphic detail about the pleasure their character was getting, would you not be uncomfortable? It seems bizarre to me that anyone would think that's ok.
The ToS clearly state that "roleplaying" will not save your ass, if you are found abusing another player.
DeleteAnd no, these racial slurs do not exist in the EvE universe. There are specific terms an Amar would (for instance) call a Minmatar, but you won't be hearing about jews, or the n-word.
Yeah it's not even remotely plausible. They say they do this stuff for tears but the character doesn't cry. The spaceship doesn't cry.
DeleteWho cries?
The IRL person.
What Chris K said.
Delete> the responses to that thread reminded me
ReplyDelete> why I'm so happy I don't play Eve any more.
My extended version:
The responses to that thread reminded me why I'm so happy I don't play *MMO games* any more.
Anonymity is the main reason why online communities almost completely lack any form of "humanity". People love smacking your virtual face and act as bad-asses. Also, you're forced to mix young preteens with aged seniors.
I'm out of this kind of "fun". I've experienced it, yes, but my MMO times are a nice thing of the past.
I'm very sorry to hear you say that. I love playing games online and meeting strangers.
DeleteI think we should fight to take back the internet!
> EVE role players don't need to clean up their
ReplyDelete> act; just any EVE players who are the same in
> real life.
They would NEVER act the same way in real life. They love bullying in virtual worlds, maybe, but I'm sure they're mostly cowards in real life.
Nonsense.
DeleteHistory is full of murderers warmongers and genocide. What makes you think that someone who is callous about people's lives in a game would necessarily be timid in real life?
cf Michael Ryan.
wow Stabs....I already consider the blogosphere rather daunting in places where common sense and decency is concerned, and you went with that question to Eve forums! that alone impresses me, although I suspect you were ready for this to become more of a "freak experiment" than anything.
ReplyDeletewhat baffles me the most is how almost nobody would even, for a second, deem you with a serious answer. it was obvious you put thought into writing a longer post, yet nobody even cared to may-be think for a moment about what you said. complete dismissal.
and the RP excuse is such a fallacy; if anyone was consequent about it, in a fictional universe there are no jews and they're certainly not based on real-world historical stereotypes.
one thing I note in context with anti-semitism and fascism, is that in the US especially slurs are more frequent or more trivialized than here where I live. of course there are still ignorant people and those who will use the jew slur, but never in such numbers. this is also something I detect with terms such as nazi or hitler, even the use of the swastika; I've overheard Americans use them almost synonymous to hardcore or badass without any notion for the real thing. it's obviously for reasons of not being as close to Europe or its history (also let's not forget a certain questline in Cataclysm), so maybe it's not just videogame culture (which is rather full on the big bad German, too), but a greater cultural/educational issue on a whole(?)
Thanks for your kind words. There were some very good answers later in the thread to be fair. One person pointed out it wasn't just jews who paid a heavy blood price and I apologised to him.
DeleteI've also received a lot of forum likes since yesterday. Maybe not everyone wants to post as it makes you a target (I won't be able to undock on that character for a while) but a lot of people gave me the thumbs up.
"One person pointed out it wasn't just jews who paid a heavy blood price and I apologised to him."
DeleteHe was derailing. People aren't randomly slinging racial arguments about slavs around, and the stereotype of rich jews used as an excuse for discrimination, murder, and blood libel is hundreds of years older than hitler. It's pretty much been brought up in every anti semitic attack since the middle ages. This is nothing to do with the holocaust.
He may have been derailing but it's never bad to be polite and if there's one thing this fiasco should teach it's that it's not good to assume you understand people's motivations.
ReplyDeleteIt's as much of a leap to assume he was derailing because he's a ganker as it is to assume it's ok to harass someone talking about suicide because they don't really mean it.
Your thread on the eveonline forums is no longer in existence. 404.
ReplyDeleteYes, it got nuked by the moderators, quite rightly. It had become VERY nasty with various unpleasant people justifying antisemitism.
DeleteStill I think it was healthy to ask the question and a lot of people agreed with me.
I don't think all the people who use "jew" as a slang term intend it to be hurtful. The problem isn't using this (or any other) word incorrectly; it's understanding the difference between in-group and public settings, and how rules of appropriate use can differ. Context is key, as is audience, and the public space/private space divide has grown far more complex with the explosion of communities created by universal fast Internet access. Many of these communities are very new and lack the normal tools traditional communities use to moderate speech and behavior. I think two steps need to be taken to make our online lives safer and more pleasant.
ReplyDeleteOne, we need to set clear standards in our online communities, and enforce them from the inside (instead of relying on moderators/GMs/employees etc). When someone breaks the standard we should directly and politely confront them and inform them of the expectation: "@ballsonfire - we don't use Jew that way here. Please keep your language and behavior respectful in this forum."
Two, we need to teach the difference between public and private settings. In private amongst your in-group, standards are set by that group. In public, standards are set by the larger community, and should be respected for the safety and well-being of the community as a whole.
I think even in a private context discrimination is not ok. I actually played in a couple of Goon guilds (not in Eve) but found myself really uncomfortable with the atmosphere.
DeleteRemember a community that is online is basically a group of strangers. If you define an online community by hatespeech that is pretty nasty to the people interested in participating. There are 100 000 registered members on the Something Awful forums, many of which are black, jewish or female. Are they supposed to just accept it?
Next the jew=trader is (I think) a Goon meme that has become an Eve meme. The Goons are culturally very dominant in Eve because they combine being very successful with being very communicative. A great many Goon memes are now used (often incorrectly) by the general Eve population (eg bad poster, pubbie, etc).