tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post1939799231697190658..comments2024-02-07T08:32:53.306+00:00Comments on Stabbed Up: Is Eve heading for a Trammel?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-82541154561169479402012-04-08T22:16:05.006+01:002012-04-08T22:16:05.006+01:00It's currently showing 1006 ship kills in the ...It's currently showing 1006 ship kills in the RvB system with 4110 ship kills in the Forge as a whole. There's tons of kills that clearly are nothing to do with RvB including 377 in Jita and 100 in Perimeter. I don't imagine many of those are consensual.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-72855527081650666752012-04-06T23:08:02.259+01:002012-04-06T23:08:02.259+01:00Yes, I SAID my observations were anecdotal, and im...Yes, I SAID my observations were anecdotal, and implying I was saying anything else is setting up a straw man. But because of my experiences, I won't take your statement that high sec is a gankfest without some numbers.<br /><br />And speaking of numbers, yes there are a lot of deaths in high sec. Go track where they are on DOTLAN. The biggest numbers will coincide with where the Red vs. Blue operations take place.<br /><br />Oh, hey, consensual high sec PvP! Imagine that.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-90427855384472866152012-04-06T00:31:12.457+01:002012-04-06T00:31:12.457+01:00Pah, sheep don't need wolves. The only thing p...Pah, sheep don't need wolves. The only thing pvp people offer pve'ers is the constant resource drain of negative sum pvp keeping the economy steady. Without that, the price of damn near everything would slowly decline as resources accumulate in abundance and rarely go away.<br /><br />But that could easily be solved through grand engineering projects in high sec! :D I was there when they built the star halo around Rens. I helped seed the star forests of dodixie! I was part of saving Jita from going nova. I built a home of my own on the dyson sphere. I was there, when it was so amazing. At least, I want to be there, if it were to happen. :)<br /><br />We never really get to do anything truly grand in eve. No deeds of great renown. It's all just either a bunch of people minding their own business or a bunch of silly kids shouting 'This is MINE! Go away, this is mine!'<br /><br />Sheep don't need wolves, but we tolerate them as long as they don't bother us _too_ much. But if there was a pve shard of eve, I'd transfer, or start new, in half a second.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827557339032342430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-74491913317508063162012-04-05T19:40:37.861+01:002012-04-05T19:40:37.861+01:00Wolves need sheep, sheep need wolves. If the sheep...Wolves need sheep, sheep need wolves. If the sheep leave because they can't sustain their fun and are pushed to extinction, the wolves ultimately suffer by losing their game.<br /><br />Ideally, the best game environment balances sheep losses with wolf power. Likely it has taken a long time and some sacrifice for the EVE wolves to build up an arsenal capable of "burning Jita". <br /><br />It may piss some people off and even leave some lasting changes, but likely the event will leave the wolves with less power overall, and the sheep smarter and able to recover much more quickly than the wolves.<br /><br />I think one of the problems of this discussion is that it is essentially wolves and sheep trying to come to a consensus. Not going to happen. Each is playing a different, although interconnected game.Bristalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11849907713604626977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-79183417884443088332012-04-05T17:33:03.524+01:002012-04-05T17:33:03.524+01:00Come on, Stabs. You are being a little over the to...Come on, Stabs. You are being a little over the top here.<br /><br />High-sec is not a chaotic, gankfest warzone. If you fly around in an overly pimped out ship (we are talking 2-3 bn ISK), expect to get war dec'd. If you move 10 PLEX in an Iteron, expect attempts on your life. <br /><br />Do new players get tricked by complex aggression rules, and end up blowing up? Sure. And CCP is iterating on ways to make aggression and criminal flagging a little cleaner and less exploitative. <br /><br />But don't paint high-sec as this cesspool of griefing and tears. That makes it sound exciting, and high-sec is anything but. :Pmotstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-41126347070918773932012-04-05T17:08:22.743+01:002012-04-05T17:08:22.743+01:00Now that's very interesting.
I would love to ...Now that's very interesting.<br /><br />I would love to see a game effectively co-opt players into policing the game against the griefers. It happened in UO, it happened sometimes in Diablo 2 where PKKs went hunting player killers.<br /><br />It's not really happening in Eve and the bounty system is rubbish. I guess the closest Eve has are the mercenary outfits.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-55364425573251114432012-04-05T17:05:29.112+01:002012-04-05T17:05:29.112+01:00I take your point about the stats but still I find...I take your point about the stats but still I find it astonishing that even normalised pvp stats show high sec kills not that far behind null.<br /><br />Null sec is consensual pvp, high sec is generally non-consensual. <br /><br />It's as if almost as many people got ganked by high level Rogues while shopping at the auction house in Ironforge as died in Warsong Gulch.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-52503411574621421542012-04-05T17:01:03.182+01:002012-04-05T17:01:03.182+01:00What I'm saying is I don't think you shoul...What I'm saying is I don't think you should take anything from the Mittani at the surface level.<br /><br />I think he's angry but not showing it other than pseudo-ironically in the SotG.<br /><br />And yes, it was planned before but it's now become co-opted as a response to his "unjust" treatment.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-49848727280395754272012-04-05T15:53:19.195+01:002012-04-05T15:53:19.195+01:00I've made many friends in Eve, and I feel very...I've made many friends in Eve, and I feel very safe around them. <br /><br />You are starting to make commentary on humans in general :P 'Given unknown conflict lines and factions, and a means to combat others, the resulting environment ends up resembling western Europe in the Middle Ages.'motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-35332788441363259972012-04-05T15:11:19.098+01:002012-04-05T15:11:19.098+01:00>I will say, however, that I am more fearful mo...>I will say, however, that I am more fearful moving an Iteron through highsec than I am flying around in low or null.<br /><br />This is what's sad about EVE. It makes you fearful of other players. Instead of providing a place where you can make friends, enjoy the game, and grow, in even the safest place in the game you still have to be afraid of other random players.<br /><br />And because kinder players are dissuaded from playing by this, it becomes that much more likely that remaining players are ones you _should_ be fearful of. Which feeds on itself until the community is so unpleasant and hostile that it becomes almost shameful to be part of it. You can't just say 'I play eve', you have to say 'I play eve, but wait! don't worry, I'm not one of those horrible people :('.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827557339032342430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-81367245004260327682012-04-05T14:56:23.163+01:002012-04-05T14:56:23.163+01:00http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?th...http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3447025&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=244#post401304823<br /><br />Dated: Mar 07, 2012 05:53<br /><br />"10,000+: Tornado Weekend in Jita. Entire alliance visits Jita, grabs Tornadoes, alphas freighters on the 4-4 undock, shutting down EVE and unleashing a maelstrom of sorrow not seen since the Ice Interdiction."motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-23608790160945640102012-04-05T14:37:18.155+01:002012-04-05T14:37:18.155+01:00Jita became the dominate trade hub organically. It...Jita became the dominate trade hub organically. It happens to be located in a fairly centralized location in the middle of the highest-populated race.motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-75476777418610435192012-04-05T14:33:42.141+01:002012-04-05T14:33:42.141+01:00I have friends in Goons, and they were all pushing...I have friends in Goons, and they were all pushing me to vote for The Mittani. If he got 10,000 votes, then Goons would camp Jita for a weekend. <br /><br />Nothing to do with the Alliance Panel scandal. <br /><br />The only place you'll find angry language from Mittani about this is in his State of the Goonion address where he is exclaiming that Goons will invade Tenal. He knows how to motivate his pilots.motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-60438274344284666082012-04-05T14:27:00.953+01:002012-04-05T14:27:00.953+01:00Stabs, all your stats are not normalized.
Far mor...Stabs, all your stats are not normalized.<br /><br />Far more ships are killed in Empire because there are far more players in Empire. There are 1000 to 2200 players in Jita at any time. Rens, Amarr, Dodoxie: each see nearly a thousand players concurrently. <br /><br />Choose any major mission hub, and there are 100 people there. Choose any other high-sec system: 20-40 people.<br /><br />Seeing more than 20 people in a low-sec or null-sec system is rare. It is either a station system, and pilots are docked afk, or there is a fight about to go down. Most of these systems are empty.<br /><br />Here are some normalized stats: http://scaurus.com/?p=645<br />* 20% people live in nullsec, responsible for 52% kills<br />* 8% people in low, see 26% kills<br />* 67% people in highsec, 15% kills<br /><br />I will say, however, that I am more fearful moving an Iteron through highsec than I am flying around in low or null. I've had a hauler ganked on a gate, losing about 200mil ISK, and it was very, very sour. C'est la Eve.motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-50018077542120001772012-04-05T13:25:09.586+01:002012-04-05T13:25:09.586+01:00I have played Eve for years. Normally in a nullsec...I have played Eve for years. Normally in a nullsec alliance. Some time in wormholes and some in highsec.<br />I think CCP do need to increase penalties on highsec pvp, and remove some of the loopholes and abused tools that allow it.<br />For example the "one day wardec" that allows a griefing alliance to run massive numbers of wardecs without paying the isk price for them.<br />Wardecs should be limited to use between two rival corps. Not used as a way to bypass the concorde penalty to kill anyone undocking in Jita...<br /><br />More generally though, Eve has a much higher propertion of total douchebags than any other MMO I have played. (And I have pretty much played them all.) It comes down to the fact that Eve gives players a lot of ways to completely ruin someone else's day. So all the douchebags play Eve because thats what they enjoy doing.<br /><br />I personally like unrestricted, open, full loot, risk V reward, meaningfull PvP.<br />However, I dont like playing with the douchebags that these rules attract.<br /><br />Early UO was the best experience I have had in an MMO. The douchebag to nice player ratio was very low, due to the fact UO had a captive audience.<br />I enjoyed hunting reds, tracking thieves, helping players in need etc.<br />This will never happen again, because there is now choice in the genre. That makes me sad.Remihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15535990645635116810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-54226667966572230272012-04-05T01:57:06.665+01:002012-04-05T01:57:06.665+01:00Wilhelm, it's so anecdotal it's useless. B...Wilhelm, it's so anecdotal it's useless. Based on a survey size of one, I could infer that everyone in the world is male and British.<br /><br />You're wrong about the "height of suicide ganking". Basically it was a dark art originally, with early adopters ganking afk haulers in what was widely regarded as "safe space". Then came Kartoon's Jihad. Then professional high sec war dec alliances like the Orpanage started and they've been growing all the time. Every Hulkaggedon has been bigger than the last.<br /><br />So over the last three years:<br />ganking of afk autopilots > up<br />Hulkageddons > each bigger than the last<br />Interdictions > a new development in mass suicide ganking that was highly successful<br />High sec war dec corps > booming<br /><br />Take a look at the stats<br />http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats<br />Far more ships are killed in Empire than anywhere else.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-73089302904259209592012-04-05T01:48:57.237+01:002012-04-05T01:48:57.237+01:00"You can opt out of PvP by docking."
Th..."You can opt out of PvP by docking."<br /><br />That's a very silly answer. You can opt out of pvp by not playing too but it's hardly how a game should be designed to make players behave.<br /><br />"I'm not sure what you are asking for, Michael. You want to be able to make enormous wealth without any risk at all?"<br /><br />There's a lot of money in null. Sreegs recently said that bounties generated 4 times the isk of incursions.<br /><br />But yeah the game design should reduce high sec income to encourage people to venture out into more dangerous space.<br /><br />But that's the point - more dangerous. At the moment high sec is more dangerous than anywhere else according to dotlan. Three and a half times more ships killed in the Forge in the last 24 hours than in the second highest region:<br /><br />http://evemaps.dotlan.net/statsStabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-88625225293632591582012-04-05T01:43:19.564+01:002012-04-05T01:43:19.564+01:00I actually think Eve's numbers are reasonable....I actually think Eve's numbers are reasonable. When you look at sub mmos, WoW beats everyone by miles but Eve is firmly within the chasing pack. It makes enough money to support a decent size business (400 or so after the layoffs?).Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-42173053932825295942012-04-05T01:39:09.028+01:002012-04-05T01:39:09.028+01:00You know, I keep seeing things like this.
Eve is ...You know, I keep seeing things like this.<br /><br />Eve is a sandbox right? In which players should be free to do what they want, right?<br /><br />Does that not include shopping at Eve's equivalent of Lidl (cheap supermarket) and getting on with what they really want to do.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-6351315897346728732012-04-05T01:37:23.078+01:002012-04-05T01:37:23.078+01:00It is an angry response. What's your reason fo...It is an angry response. What's your reason for saying it isn't? That the Goons spymaster said he wasn't angry. Did it ever occur to you that someone who built his Eve career on deception might not be a sure source of facts?Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-7361622736431612082012-04-05T01:11:23.927+01:002012-04-05T01:11:23.927+01:00I know I took Fanfest as the impetus to unsub my a...I know I took Fanfest as the impetus to unsub my accounts, as per the "look at what players do not say"<br /><br />So if it is not the players' attitudes that are keeping EVE subscriber numbers so low, what is it? Too elegant of a UI? It can not be PvP since WoT is 100% PvP and it can get 420k+ users online just in Russia.<br /><br />CCP targeting a very tiny market niche with EVE is their biggest strength and greatest weakness. As long as the shareholders are content with the status quo, it is unlikely things will change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-20115333616197500532012-04-04T18:33:12.847+01:002012-04-04T18:33:12.847+01:00Hulkageddon is more about combating high-sec bot m...Hulkageddon is more about combating high-sec bot miners than causing grief. <br /><br />No doubt legitimate players get caught in the violence, but their deaths are rationalized as: "Mining is so monotonous that bots do it. Thus all players mining are no better than bots."motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-47953716056882503672012-04-04T17:42:42.720+01:002012-04-04T17:42:42.720+01:00I would also contest that there is some sort of re...I would also contest that there is some sort of recent uptick in no-consenual high sec PvP without some numbers to back it up. <br /><br />The height of suicide ganking was a couple of years back and we are looking towards Hulkageddon V, which itself is a knock-off of a Goon anti-miner Jihad nearly a year before the first Hulkageddon.<br /><br />There is a long history here already.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-11154264958032351612012-04-04T17:05:30.001+01:002012-04-04T17:05:30.001+01:00If I could +1 this post, I would.If I could +1 this post, I would.motstandethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296441082624422375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8829401646612727780.post-11511739431676816602012-04-04T16:36:09.836+01:002012-04-04T16:36:09.836+01:00The UO analogy breaks down somewhat because the EV...The UO analogy breaks down somewhat because the EVE universe is so big. Unlike UO, everybody plays on the same server and have spread out. If you do your PvE business a jump or two away from Jita, which attracts the good and the bad like any big city, the crime rate is high.<br /><br />But there are lots of systems out there where you can safely mine and produce to your hearts content. I spent three years in and around a system in Amarr space... not even a backwater, but a quest hub that always had 30-80 people in it, just a few jumps from the Amarr trade hub, which always has a few hundred, and never got bothered.<br /><br />My pre-null sec deaths to other players on both of my accounts adds up to this:<br /><br />-Killed in a low sec gate camp<br />-Killed when I shot at a much bigger ship that stole ore from my jet can<br />-Killed in a low sec gate camp<br />-Killed running a mission in low sec<br />-Killed in a low sec gate camp<br />-Killed in a low sec gate camp<br />-Suicide ganked in a .5 system at the height of the suicide ganking, in a system known for suicide ganking, while flying valuable cargo while AFK<br /><br />I realize this is anecdotal, but one un-invited PvP action in 5 years does make me look at the claims that EVE is this abusive hell hole for new players with a skeptical eye.<br /><br />I would guess that CCP loses more players to things like "it's boring" or "it's too hard" than to non-consentual PvP.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.com